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Ангмар
« В: 02/15/04 в 14:05:08 »
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Граждане, по дискуссии с Эмигрантом стало мне ясно, что поразительно мало знаем мы про это государство.
 
Итак, небольшая подборка цитат:
"To the last battle at Fornost with the Witch-lord of Angmar they sent some bowmen to the aid of the king, or so they maintained, though no tales of Men record it. "  ВК  (О хоббитах)
 
"'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!'" (Мерри после визита в могильник)
 
"Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar." (Бомбадил там же)
 
"'No. There is no barrow on Weathertop, nor on any of these hills,' answered Strider. 'The Men of the West did not live here; though in their latter days they defended the hills for a while against the evil that came out of Angmar."  (Арагорн о нагорье.   Заметим, по холмам проходил _временный_ рубеж.)
 
"Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end." (Арагорн об Ангмаре и Рудауре)
 
"‘Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,’ said Gandalf. ‘King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.’" (Гэндальф об Ангмарце)
 
"But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king."
(О гибели Ангмарца.  Опять-таки заметим, Ангмар числится главным врагом, но никак не единственным.)
 
Собственно, о войнах:
"‘It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]’
In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar. Argeleb therefore fortified the Weather Hills;  but he was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar.
Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills; and for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell. It is said that at this time Rivendell was besieged.
A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain. The Tower of Amon Sul was burned and razed; but the palantir was saved and carried back in retreat to Fornost, Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar,  and the Dúnedain that remained there were slain or fled west Cardolan was ravaged. Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from Cirdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs. A remnant of the faithful among the Dunedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.
It is said that Angmar was for a time subdued by the Elvenfolk coming from Lindon; and from Rivendell, for Elrond brought help over the Mountains out of Lórien. It was at this time that the Stoors that had dwelt in the Angle (between Hoarwell and Loudwater) fled west and south, because of the wars, and the dread of Angmar, and because the land and clime of Eriador, especially in the east, worsened and became unfriendly. Some returned to Wilderland, and dwelt beside the Gladden, becoming a riverside people of fishers."
[пропущена чума в Кардолане и пр. Последний принц Кардолана убит в бою в 1409.]
"In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended. He captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king. But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses."
[История Арведуи.  Вождь Лоссотов говорит, что Ангмарец может управлять погодой и что зимой его холодная рука особенно длинна.]
 
Из данных по Гондору:
"It was at that time that Arvedui heir of Araphant wedded Fíriel daughter of Ondoher (1940). But neither kingdom was able to send help to the other; for Angmar renewed its attack upon Arthedain at the same time as the Wainriders reappeared in great force."  
 
Похол Эарнура на север:
'It was, however, long before Earnil felt himself sufficiently secure to do as he promised. King Araphant continued with dwindling strength to hold off the assaults of Angmar, and Arvedui when he succeeded did likewise; but at last in the autumn of 1973 messages came to Gondor that Arthedain was in great straits, and that the Witch-king was preparing a last stroke against it. Then Eärnil sent his son Eärnur north with a fleet, as swiftly as he could, and with as great strength as he could spare. Too late. Before Eärnur reached the havens of Lindon, the Witch-king had conquered Arthedain and Arvedui had perished.
'But when Earnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor. Most of all, the horses were praised, for many of them came from the Vales of Anduin, and with them were riders tall and fair, and proud princes of Rhovanion.
Then Cirdan summoned all who would come to him, from Lindon or Arnor, and when all was ready the host crossed the Lune and marched north to challenge the Witch-king of Angmar. He was now dwelling, it is said, in Fornost, which he had filled with evil folk, usurping the house and rule of the kings. In his pride he did not await the onset of his enemies in his stronghold, but went out to meet them, thinking to sweep them, as others before, into the Lune.
'But the Host of the West came down on him out of the Hills of Evendim, and were was a great battle on the plain between Nenuial and the North Downs. The forces of Angmar were already giving way and retreating towards Fornost when the main body of the horsemen that had passed round the hills came down from the north and scattered them in a great rout. Then the Witch-king, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northwards, seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Carn Dum the cavalry of Gondor overtook him with Eärnur riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell. Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.
'But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Earnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.
'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.
'Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered; but Eärnur was angry, desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace.
'So ended the evil realm of Angmar; and so did Earnur, Captain of Gondor, earn the chief hatred of the Witch-king; but many years were still to pass before that was revealed.'
It was thus in the reign of King Earnil, as later became clear, that the Witch-king escaping from the North came to Mordor, and there gathered the other Ringwraiths, of whom he was the chief. But it was not until 2000 that they issued from Mordor by the Pass of Cirith Ungol and laid siege to Minas Ithil This they took in 2002, and captured the palantir of the tower. They were not expelled while the Third Age lasted; and Minas Ithil became a place of fear, and was renamed Minas Morgul. Many of the people that still remained in Ithilien deserted it.
'Eärnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual.'
When Eärnur received the crown in 2043 the King of Minas Morgul challenged him to single combat, taunting him that he had not dared to stand before him in battle in the North. For that time Mardil the Steward restrained the wrath of the king. Minas Anor, which had become the chief city of the realm since the days of King Telemnar, and the residence of the kings, was now renamed Minas Tirith, as the city ever on guard against the evil of Morgul.
Earnur had held the crown only seven years when the Lord of Morgul repeated his challenge, taunting the king that to the faint heart of his youth he had now added the weakness of age. Then Mardil could no longer restrain him, and he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul. None of that riding were ever heard of again. It was believed in Gondor that the faithless enemy had trapped the king, and that he had died in torment in Minas Morgul; but since there were no witnesses of his death, Mardil the Good Steward ruled Gondor in his name for many years.
 
Эотеод
"when therefore they heard of the overthrow of the Witch-king, they sought more room in the North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side of the Mountains."
 
Одна из причин похода на Эребор:
"But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills."  (То есть Гэндальфу идея, что Враг захочет вернуть себе Ангмар казалась достаточно вероятной.)
 
Хроника -
1300 - король назгул приходит в Ангмар
1409 - The Witch-king of Angmar invades Arnor. King Arvaleg I slain. Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are defended. The Tower of Amon Sul destroyed.
1974 - End of the North-kingdom. The Witch-king over-runs Arthedain and takes Fornost.
1975 - Arvedui drowned in the Bay of Forochel. The palantiri of Annuminas and Amon Sul are lost. Earnur brings a fleet to Lindon. The Witch-king defeated at the Battle of Fornost, and pursued to the Ettenmoors. He vanishes from the North.
 
Пока что все.  Кто что добавит?
 
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #1 В: 02/15/04 в 17:13:39 »
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Черновики берём?
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #2 В: 02/15/04 в 17:43:10 »
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Все берем.  Но у меня HOME нету.
 
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« Ответить #3 В: 02/15/04 в 18:40:07 »
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Прислать?  
Там, во-первых, много, во-вторых, сильно пересекается само с собой и с итоговым текстом (то есть, с приложениями к ВК), в-третьих, "Толкин думал, думал и передумал", то есть, разные версии.  
 
Но много. Но интересно. Но по-английски (а мне щас толком некогда разобраться, что там по делу, что нет, и что как с чем соотносится).
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« Ответить #4 В: 02/15/04 в 19:05:27 »
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Тогда пришлите мне почтой, а я разберусь.
 
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« Ответить #5 В: 02/15/04 в 23:28:30 »
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Угу. 12-й том отослала. Smiley
 
Кое-что из HoME 8-3, комментарии Кристофера Толкина к черновикам ВК.
 
"and Gandalf still as in the draft (p. 331) reminds Pippin who the Black Captain is: 'You have met him, Peregrin son of Paladin, though then he was far from home, veiled to your eyes, when he stalked the Ringbearer. Now he is come forth in power again, growing as his Master grows.'  Gandalf now names him  'King of Angmar long ago', and this is the first appearance of the conception of the Kingdom of Angmar in the texts of The Lord of the Rings".  
 
Первоначальный вариант пророчества о гибели Короля-Призрака:
 
and after 'But our trial of strength is not come yet' he recalls a prophecy concerning the fate of the Lord of the Nazgul different from that in the brief outline given on p. 326:
 
 '... And if words spoken of old come true, he is not doomed to fall before warrior or wise [> men of war or wisdom]; but in the hour of his victory to be overthrown by one who has never slain a man [> by one who has slain no living thing]....'
 
In RK this becomes: 'not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him' (cf. RK p. 116).
 
Про меч Мерри:
 
"Of Merry's sword it was first said in this text, 'So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. Glad would he  have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago, for the sorcerer-king he knew and the dread realm of Angmar in the ancient North, hating all his deeds.' The text of RK (pp. 119 - 20), 'who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young was substituted, probably at once."
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« Ответить #6 В: 02/16/04 в 17:50:49 »
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Так, первые результаты.  
"In  the  days  of  Malvegil Orcs  again became  a menace,  and invaded the lands of Arnor. The Ulairi or Ringwraiths began  to stir again. The chief of the  Olairi comes  north and  establishes himself as a king of evil men in Angmar in the far north regions."
То есть получается, что "злые люди" на дальнем севере уже жили, и место это уже Ангмаром называлось, а номер первый просто явился туда и каким-то образом заполучил верховную власть.
 
"The  purpose  of  the  Witch-king  is  to destroy Arnor, for there is more  hope of  success in  the North  (where the realm  is  disunited)  than  in  the  South  while   Gondor  remains strong.  At this  time no  descendants of  Isildur remain  in Rhudaur or  Cardolan;  therefore the  kings of  Arthedain again  claim overlordship in all Arnor. The claim  is rejected  by Rhudaur,  in which power  has  been  seized  by  men  in  secret  league  with Angmar."
Получаем, что  
а) король-чародей действительно подался на север именно с целью уничтожить Арнор - то бишь, при нем Ангмар был государством с конкретным назначением.
б) в Рудауре был не мятеж горцев, а ползучий переворот.  Поскольку люди, "состоявшие в тайном союзе с Ангмаром", выдвинулись к власти еще при Малвегиле.
 
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #7 В: 02/18/04 в 19:26:46 »
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Ребята, вот ссылка на материалы по истории Кардолана собранные в свое время Остогером и исследование об Ангмарских войнах, составленное Нолондиль. Обе статьи лежат на АнК. Как говорится, до кучи...
« Изменён в : 02/18/04 в 19:28:46 пользователем: Anchan » Зарегистрирован
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« Ответить #8 В: 02/20/04 в 18:27:43 »
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Cпасибо Анчан, статьи известные Smiley.
 
Далее по HOME
Arveleg   I.  born   1309   lived   100    years   +    slain   1409
The  Witch-king  of  Angmar  taking  advantage  of  war  among  [the Numenoreans   or   Dunedain   >]   the   Dunedain  comes   down  out  of  the  North.   He  overruns   Cardolan  and   Rhudaur.  [Cardolan  is  ravaged  and  destroyed  and  becomes  desolate.  The  Tower  of Amon Sul  is razed  and the  palantir is  broken. Evil  spirits come and take up  their abode  in the  mounds of  the hills  of Cardolan.
  In Rhudaur an  evil folk,  workers of  sorcery, subjects  of Angmar, slay  the  remnants  of  the Dunedain  and build  dark forts  in thehills. But the Dunedain of Fornost, in spite of  the death  of their king, hold out,  and repel  the forces  of Angmar  with the  help of Cirdan  of  Lindon.
 
Araval     1711 180  1891    
With  the  help  of  Lindon  and  Imladris  he  won  a  victory  over Angmar  in  1851,  and  sought  to  reoccupy  Cardolan, but  the evil wights terrify all who seek to dwell near.      
 
Araphant. born 1789 lived 175 years died 1864.        
 Angmar   recovers   and   makes   war   on  the   Dunedain.  Araphant seeks  to  renew  ancient  alliance  and  kinship  with   Gondor.  
 
In [added:  the winter  of] 1974  the  Witch-king destroyed  Fornost,   laid  Arthedain   waste,  and scattered  the  remnants  of  the  Dunedain.  Arvedui   escaped  from Fornost  and  fled  north,  taking  the  palantiri  of  Annuminas and Emyn  Beraid.  He  attempted  to   go  by   ship  from   Forochel  to  Gondor  but  was  wrecked  and  the  Stones  were  lost. The  sons of Arvedui  took  refuge  with  Cirdan  of  Lune.  The   following  year  Elrond  and  Cirdan,  with  some  belated  help  from   Gondor,  sent by  sea,  defeated  the   forces  of   Angmar.  The   Witch-king  was overthrown  by  Elrond,  and  his  realm  brought  to  an   end.  The northern  lands  though   desolate  were   now  made   somewhat  more wholesome  again.  But  it was  found later  that the  Witch-king had fled  away  secretly  southwards,  and had  entered Minas  Ithil (now called Minas Morgul) and become Lord of the Ringwraiths.  
 
Из новенького
- роль Элронда в этом деле указана как ервенствущая.  
- сказано, что северные земли стали более "здоровыми" (интересно, что именно Толкиен имел в виду)
- Ангмарец становится Первым Назгулом _после_ взятия Минас Исиль.
 
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #9 В: 05/29/04 в 10:43:23 »
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C огромной благодарностью Туилиндо и Талиорне, отыскавшим вот это:
 
8-й том, третья часть, 6 глава ("Осада Гондора"):
Gandalf saves Faramir. Faramir sees Pippin at gate of Citadel and wonders - Gandalf introdures them, and takes Pippin along to Denethor's council. So Pippin hears a lot and hears Faramir accept orders to go to Osgiliath. Denethor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared.
He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order ... [?from] Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight - for many an age he has lain in hiding or sleep while his master's power waned. But now he is grown more fell than ever. Yet it was foretold that he should be overthrown, in the end, by one young and gallant. But maybe that lies far in the future.'
Понятно, что в этой версии окончательного варианта пророчества еще нет и сразить короля-чародея может просто кто-то "юный и отважный".   Но если "из его ордена", то получилось бы, что Ангмарец - из совращенных Синих?  И как тогда быть с Нуменором, утонувшим _до_ того, как Истари отправились в смертные земли?  Так что эта версия распадается сама по себе - даже если не учитывать того, что она была отвергнута впоследствии.
 
Версия о том, что главный назгул - величайший из чародеев, это 7-й том, 1 часть, 6-я глава:
Then my heart failed for a moment; for the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them.
 
ВК:
my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer
he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear.
 
С уважением,
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #10 В: 05/30/04 в 18:31:44 »
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/*me расписывается в собственном невежестве и, полагая, что не одна я здесь такая, хотелось бы просить тех, кто выкладывает тексты на английском, выкладывать и перевод - для тех, кто этим языком не владеет, но предметом интересуется.
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #11 В: 01/27/05 в 20:01:01 »
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Тоже 7-й том, 1-я часть. "Таркил" - это Арагорн.
 
"I have the Broken Sword, said Tarkil. My fathers were driven out of your city when Sauron raised a rebellion, and he that is now the Chief of the Nine drove us out.
 Minas Morgol.
 War between Ond and Wizard King.
(неразборчиво) Tarkil's sires had been King. Tarkil will come and help Ond. Tarkil's fathers had been driven out by the wizard that is now Chief of the Nine".
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #12 В: 01/27/05 в 21:02:16 »
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Sauron raised a rebellion
Sauron podymal vosstanie? Gde?  Shocked
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #13 В: 01/27/05 в 22:30:33 »
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В запломбированном вагоне приехал... Smiley
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Этак вот.

С уважением, Ингвалл.
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Re: Ангмар
« Ответить #14 В: 01/27/05 в 23:12:08 »
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Smiley  A kuda priehal-to? V Gondor?
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